SEASON 2, EPISODE 11
LGBTQ + Björk

Ahmed: I was having a conversation with, with, uh, with a friend and this person who was dating

 

Savannah: This is Ahmed. He grew up in Saudi Arabia and now lives in Egypt.

 

Ahmed: And I was trying to flex a little bit and so, oh, I listen to Bjork and I'm really cool. And then my friend was like, oh yeah, it's another gay guy listening to Bjork. Groundbreaking.

 

I think it shattered a little bit of this image of her being such a fringe musician, especially in a country like here.

 

Savannah: Ahmed discovered Bjork’s music late one night while watching MTV Europe.

 

Ahmed: And then there was this strange video with this strange person. I, I had no idea what she was saying, what they were talking about, and it was, I think it was '"Hidden Place" and I was just mesmerized. And I think I was captivated ever since.

 

I think growing up profoundly closeted in a country like Saudi Arabia, you especially not being from the country itself. You, you are automatically the odd one out. And I guess you identify with the underdogs or the other oddballs or… people who are just doing their own thing. And there was this person wearing a swan to the Oscars, laying eggs, you know. How can she not be an icon?

 

She's not like the Lady Gaga or the Cher, but she's this huge gay icon… and no one seems to know why or talk about it?

 

Savannah: I mean, we do talk about it. It’s a running gag on Bjork’s Vault of Dank Memes on Instagram and Facebook. In one meme, there’s a line of text that says “‘I’m a really interesting gay guy’ starter pack” and then below it are four pictures. One of crystal meth, one of a Swiss cheese plant, one of cocaine, and the last one is the cover of Debut.

 

The thing is: we don’t really know why so many LGBTQ+ people love her music. So I asked you on Instagram, “Why is Bjork a gay or a queer icon?”

 

In this episode, Ahmed and I will discover the answer. I interviewed about a dozen Bjork Unravelled listeners. You’ll hear, in their own words, why they identify with her music. And by the end of it, you’ll understand how Bjork’s music helps them and other LGBTQ+ fans feel safe… and feel seen.

 

Here’s what I found:

 

Bjork isn’t a gay rights activist the way Lady Gaga is. But she does voice her support in subtler, less direct ways. And, to be fair, that’s how she approaches a lot of political issues (like feminism and current events).

 

Here’s the main quote we have. It’s from an interview she did with DIVA magazine in 2004:

 

“I think everyone’s bisexual to some degree or another; it’s just a question of whether or not you choose to recognize it and embrace it. Personally, I think choosing between men and women is like choosing between cake and ice cream. You’d be daft not to try both when there are so many different flavors.”

 

Ahmed: She's such a scientist. Even the way she's approaching something like this is very Kinsey scale-ish.

 

Savannah: What do you mean by that?

 

Ahmed: It's a very scientific approach. I don't think your average person talks like that. It's basic sociology or sexology for that matter.

 

Savannah: Still, she's been vague when she refers to her own sexuality. In a Reddit AMA in 2016, Bjork talked about her love for RuPaul’s Drag Race. 

 

She said, “I was looking for something to watch with my daughter, and over the last few months we watched all eight series... It’s uplifting how [RuPaul] builds up the queens. He gives them tough love and they blossom throughout the series. It’s really life-affirming—but on top of everything else it’s obviously hilarious. I know all the queens now by name—we quote it left, right and center.” 

 

One of the queens named Katya actually parodied Bjork in that season’s All Stars. And Bjork was all for it.

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"YESSSSSSSS I absolutely loved it. Especially when she started humming to herself, ha ha ha. Selfishly I was hoping for a more current version like a Vulnicura one lol. But she nailed the feminist activist tribal volta…[It's the] sincerest form of flattery."

 

Ahmed: Fantastic. I don't think I saw that. I don't think I heard of her commenting on Katya's parody. I have to look that up. That sounds incredible.

 

Savannah:  So she's familiar with some of the things happening in gay culture. But then there’s the fact that she’s from Iceland. If you look at the Guide to Iceland tourism site, it says: “Being queer in Iceland is not something that is tolerated; it is something that is celebrated. There are very few places in the world where people from across the spectrums of gender and sexuality receive as much love, and encounter as little hate, as they do in Iceland.”

 

Ahmed: It sounds amazing, but then there's also how her inner circle recently also seems to be quite queer as well. I mean there's obviously Arca and everyone knows about Arca's story and everything. But then there's James Merry with the R&B references and messages as well as the masks and everything. And then Jesse Kanda as well. Yeah, it seems to be the inner circle thing as well, and I think that's where the RuPaul stuff probably came from as well.

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Savannah: Yeah, that's totally right. So that's something I want to talk about a little bit later. But I think it's definitely worth looking at the people that she collaborates with, her friends, and how they might be influencing her tastes and things like that.

 

That said, she’s only been in public relationships with men so she’s not as much of a queer icon as people she’s worked with, like Arca or serpentwithfeet. 

 

But I don’t think it matters that much, because I spoke to a lot of listeners from the LGTBQ+ community, and they said they still feel a kinship and solidarity with her.

 

A few of them brought up that they love Bjork’s confidence in herself. 

 

Here’s one listener, Bara, from London. 

 

Bara:  I suppose this is a way of showing gratitude for someone who I felt stood by me with her music growing up and providing that space to explore who I am and to accept who I am. Because I watched a lot of her interviews and she was always very unapologetically who she is.

 

Ahmed: I can totally relate to that. It's just watching this person not fit in and just do their own thing regardless of how they're being made fun of as they're speaking. You watch her interviews and interviewers would attempt to make fun of her as she answers their stupid questions about her quirkiness or her this or that, and she's just sitting there trying to give an honest answer and being herself and just going with the flow.

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Ahmed: That's kind of what you deal with as a queer person. Why are you walking that way? And it's like, well, why are you so fixated in how I'm walking?

 

Savannah: Yeah, I love that.

 

Ahmed: Do you remember that old quote by her? I think it was also about the swan dress. It was about taking how you feel on the inside, on the outside. Well, I feel pink, I want to wear a pink big jacket.

 

Savannah: I think the fashion is definitely a part of what came up in these conversations. People relate to the fact that she is just doing what she wants to do, and she doesn't care how people are going to react. And you can't really pin her down into one style or one category, and that's what this one listener from Panama said.

 

Arrely: I was used to thinking that we had to be boxed in a certain category as people, like I could be straight or I could be lesbian or I could be butch or I could be feminine. Everything was detached. But through Bjork's music and her interviews and just the way she presents herself to the world, I started seeing it as a whole. Sensuality, sexuality and emotions could come together as part of the entire human dimension and human experience.

 

Ahmed: It makes me think of how fortunate I am to grow up watching one album being released after another and watching the characters that accompany these albums emerge one by one relating to that. That you can also evolve as a person, not just fashion wise, but also in how deep you want to delve into things or how silly and dancey and volta you want to be with life.

 

Savanah: Yeah, the different characters that she inhabits through each album and how she gets in touch with different sides of herself through each album cycle. And that actually brings me to another point. When I initially asked my listeners for their experiences, I asked for stories about how Bjork helped them embrace their sexuality. But a few non-binary listeners told me that Bjork’s music actually helped them feel confident about their gender expression.

 

Here’s what Mace from Seattle said:

 

Mace: I feel like Bjork is someone who inhabits a way of living that is kind of beyond binaries, just in the way that she seems to think about the world and grapple with things. And even just like the jump between Homogenic and Vespertine, like the fact that those albums to me feel so different. One is so explosive and big, and then the other is so soft and intricate. And just that vacillation I relate to in my spirit in many ways. I was already feeling free to explore my gender, but it was just “play” listening to Bjork and just more freedom.

 

Ahmed: I think Mace put it beautifully. You're allowed to exist as this loud, obnoxious person or this super introverted homebody. It makes me think of how her accent kind of shifts whenever she's speaking to anyone from the UK. 

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Savannah: Yeah, that's so true. I remember in the Post era she kind of had this cockney accent because of living in London. 

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Savannah: She's very adaptable. She's a chameleon. And I think that is something that Mace brought up, just the fact that Bjork can tap into all these different parts of herself. It makes sense why non-binary listeners would identify with that.

 

Mace also brought up something that I hadn't heard of before, but it definitely relates to Bjork's lyrics. It's called "Relational Anarchy."

 

Mace: It's born out of the queer community and it's kind of this way of seeing relationships in an anarchical way. Kind of like turning relationships on their head. 

A piece of relational anarchy is being romantic with nature and cultivating intimacy with nature. And I think Bjork is so intimate with nature and the way that she writes and reflects. And there are countless songs to reference, let alone the entire album of Biophilia where she's exploring the universe and the cosmos in such an intimate and related way.

 

So I just feel like there's this piece of Bjork, that's just like doing relational anarchy, and it gives me encouragement. And I'm like, "Yeah, I relate to a cliff similarly. And I am romantic with the ocean" and that's a part of my queerness. And I feel like Bjork invites that.

 

Ahmed: I completely agree. And it's different ways of love. That's very aptly put. Absolutely.

 

Savannah: Now, Ahmed, I want to ask you. Are there specific Bjork songs that you relate to? Ones that helped you embrace your sexuality? Or gave you confidence to be yourself?

 

Ahmed: Yeah, that's a tough one to answer, right? I mean, it's not one of my favorites, but "Cocoon." Can we just talk about "Cocoon" for a second? It was kind of a mantra in a way whenever you fall in love. Or "Harm of Will." I think the entirety of Vespertine was it for me, just relating to infatuation in that kind of almost secretive way because it was also how you kind of grow up super closeted in a country like Saudi where you can fall in love, but it's a secret love. It's a hush hush love. You can't talk about it not even to the person you're in love with.

 

And so just to put on your headphones and mentally stalk this person while listening to Vespertine was kind of like someone knows exactly what you're going through in a way. But the opposite is also true. I remember being angry with exes and I remember being, "I dare you. I dare you to show me your palms." So "Five Years" was the ultimate breakup song before Vulnicura. I love it.

 

Savannah: That's interesting that you brought up those two periods of Bjork's work because I think a lot of Homogenic songs and a lot of Vespertine songs were the main ones that I heard when I asked people this question. "All is Full of Love" was one that came up again and again for obvious reasons. It kind of goes back to that idea we were just talking about with relational anarchy. "Love is all around you."

 

But when you say the entire Vespertine album, that was definitely a big reference point, too. I really like what Zach, a listener from Tennessee brought up about "Hidden Place." 

 

Zack: I love "Hidden Place." That feeling of falling in love and going into this very safe space that something that maybe you've not found before can give you. There's this duality to it. That sort of like, "I want to give myself to you, but I'm afraid to." That resonates with me in a way that when I first came out and was very scared because it's like a second puberty. That song really hits in the right way.

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Ahmed: I think I completely relate to what Zach said because that's exactly how "Hidden Place" felt like. I think my entire music taste had evolved and changed after discovering her music. I found out what I like. I like people who, women mostly, who are not afraid to show vulnerability. It's okay. It's good to be emotionally raw, to be honest, to be emotionally expressive rather than just performing.

 

So yeah, Vespertine is a major reference point. I kind of expected that because it’s about falling in love and embracing your sexuality. 

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Savannah: Yeah, I think that's definitely a part of Vespertine that people relate to is wanting to express these feelings, but — that line from "Pagan Poetry" — "I'm going to keep it to myself. "So it made sense that Vespertine came up a lot in these conversations that I had and that you brought it up too.

 

There were some other songs that were different or were unique to some of the conversations I had. Javier from New York City brought up "Venus as a Boy."

 

Javier: It kind of embraces this person who is male but also kind of like romantic and has these like Venus elements about them. And Venus is typically the feminine, the peaceful. It's the complete opposite of this machismo archetype. And that was something that was so interesting to me that someone would like this. It was one of the first times where it felt like a man being feminine wasn't seen as this bad thing, but it was seen as this thing to be worshiped or thing to be looked up on.

 

Savannah: There were a few songs I wasn’t expecting, though. Like “Army of Me.” Octavio from Brazil explains more.

 

Octavio: Trans people here and in the United States are in a total state of fear. They literally can't go out in the street by day. So when I say that her music gives me peace, it's just not a peaceful peace. Imagine being a little gay boy in the most terrible environment for LGBT people and listening to some song like "Army of Me." And this gives to me a kind of calm power.

 

Savannah: And then there was this one really powerful story that Anthony from Venezuela shared about the song "Pneumonia," which is another song I wasn't expecting to get brought up. 

 

Anthony: I read somewhere that is related about tuberculosis, and I interpreted myself that message more like I could feel suffocated. Not as tuberculosis, but suffocated in a world where I could be accused. It is like the song says: "All stillborn love that could have happened. All the moments you should have embraced, all the moments you should have not locked up." Because when you're pretending to be someone else, you don't really enjoy the moments. And that message at the end when she said, "Understand so clearly to shut yourself up would be the hugest crime of them all." Wow. That's when I cry because I don't want to feel again like that. That specific message tells me that it's the hugest crime not being yourself.

 

Ahmed: It's such an overlooked song. You're absolutely right. It got me from "get over the sorrow, girl." It's exactly that. It's a private anthem. It's something that you play to empower yourself. But you're making me think of "Mouth Mantra" because it's kind of the same theme in a way. And it also has that empowering defiance to it where it's like you're not allowed to exist or speak or express yourself, and here's this person saying "no, f*** that, I'm going to rage" essentially. 

 

Savannah: That's an interesting connection. I like that.

 

So a lot of LGBTQ+ people identify with Bjork and her music, but does that mean she's a queer icon? Well, first I want to get clear on what a queer icon is. How would you explain it, Ahmed?

 

Ahmed: I have no idea how to answer that. I mean, you think of a queer icon as someone like Cher who until "Believe" did not make any queer music. She just made run-of-the-mill pop music, and all of a sudden it was just this unexpected curve ball. I feel like it's this person who's been defiant from the get-go and also entering her solo career from the clubs. I think that's also got something to do with it, no?

 

Savannah: Yeah. That's something that another listener brought up is how her music was probably played in these gay clubs, and that could be how her music got popular with the LGBTQ+ community.

 

But I also think you're on the right track when you are continually bringing up these female superstars. You mentioned, "oh, I love listening to these female artists who are defiant." So this listener, Frank from the Netherlands, did some of his own research on Reddit about this, and he found this interesting quote,

 

Frank: Queer people, we relate to performers that we see aspects of ourselves in, but are unable to express... That's why powerful females that express themselves become queer icons.

 

Ahmed: Exactly. I don't know why he made me think of the Olympics in Athens in 2004, and it's just this bigger than life literal tent that enveloped everyone. How can that not be a queer icon, someone whose dress is literally eating up athletes? It's incredible.

 

Savannah: That's hilarious I love that.

 

As I was looking into what makes a queer icon, I found an article from “Untitled Magazine” last year, and they actually broke them down into a few different categories. 

 

Number one: the woman who suffers for her art. Think: Judy Garland. A more contemporary example is Lana Del Rey.

 

Number two: the diva. Think: Beyonce, Janet Jackson, and Cher.

 

Number three: the androgynous superstar. Like Grace Jones or David Bowie.

 

And number four: the quirky icons who defy labels altogether. This is definitely where Bjork fits in.

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Ahmed: I think she's all four. She's done all four archetypes. She

 

Savannah: That's true

 

Ahmed: In a way, right? The androgyny with "Hunter" and the no makeup and things like that, and the diva punching reporters and refusing to say hi to fans and things like that. And just being notoriously difficult supposedly, which she has the right to obviously, but yeah, and dresses that eat people. So it's incredible.

 

Savannah: And then also the woman who suffers for her art. I mean Vulnicura definitely captures that part of her personality. I love that you said that she's all four because of course Bjork can't fit into one category.

 

Near the end of the article, there’s this quote that really gets to the heart of it: “...what makes a queer icon is not necessarily a persona or appearance, but the emotion an individual projects. One does not profess themselves a queer icon, it is something that over time becomes embedded in the culture surrounding their output.”

 

What I like about this quote is that it’s not about what the artist themself says. It’s about the fans they attract. Bjork once joked that her average listener is a gay man from Mexico, so I think we have our answer.

 

But the culture that Bjork attracts… it also extends to her collaborators. Here’s Javier from New York City again.

 

Javier: So the first song that I heard that really even made me aware that trans people existed was "The Dull Flame of Desire" on the Volta album where she did with [Anohni]. I remember looking into that song and kind of seeing, who is this [Anohni] person? What is their thing? I learned [Anohni] is a trans woman, and I thought it was really interesting to see someone not only feature someone on a song that is trans, but also give them this prominent position of "You are equal to me. We're just having this chemistry back and forth, and there's this equality between us. I'm a singer, you're a singer, and we're just going to do this." That was really interesting to me. It made me feel like, oh, there's space for people who are different.

 

Ahmed: I'm also thinking on the same album "My Juvenile," also featuring [Anohni], Anohni was featured as the voice of her conscience. So I don't think Anohni was just featured as an equal, but rather as an echo of Bjork's voice herself. And that's the way they often performed on the last Anohni and the Johnson's album. I think one of those recordings from Bjork and Anohni's sessions... they're just sitting there echoing each other's vocals and sounds, and just having this gibberish conversation with no words, but full of meaning and emotion. No one talks about that song, but beautiful. It's beautiful.

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Savannah: Yeah, I love that you brought that up. It's like they're not just equals, but they're almost halves of a hole in this song that you brought up.

 

Now, that’s one way of answering the question of why Bjork is a queer icon. But I loved the reasons other people brought up in these interviews. Javier said that her playfulness with fashion is reminiscent of drag. Mace brought up how Bjork draws people into imaginative ways of living — which captures the queer spirit. Bara brought up how accepting she is of everyone.

 

And there was one answer I still find myself thinking about. Here’s Jay, from Sydney:

 

Jay: I feel like a lot of what she's exploring is about being post-human. It's almost like evolving beyond what we are, what we have been, to whatever the next form is going to be. A lot of the characters she creates, the music she creates, it's not tied to our body, but it's still tied to nature. But it's enhanced by technology, but then it's also post gender, but then it's also very sexual, but then it can also be very cold and disembodied. I think it's definitely deconstructing what it means to be human and then thinking about what it means to evolve and become higher versions of ourselves.

 

So I think that's how I'd say it would fit in with queer culture because part of being queer is looking back at society, looking at structures and thinking, "Hmm, I don't really like this," or "I don't really fit in with this." "Things can be done differently," or "there's a different way or a better way that we could be doing things."

 

Ahmed: Yeah, I think she takes on this role of a removed sociologist looking at humans. From the very beginning, from "Human Behavior," this person or this entity watching humans run amuck and people dabbling outside. It's always this person who is removed.

 

Savannah:  Yeah. I love that you brought up "Human Behavior." I think she is a little bit on the outside looking at what does it mean to be human and why do we do these silly things, but she's also very much in it because she's expressing these human emotions that I feel like very few other artists I've heard can express just through their voice.

 

I just love what Jay said about being posthuman because it kind of cements that idea that you can't really put her in a box. She's looking back at all of the things that we silly humans do and questioning it. Why do we dress this way? Why do we sing this way? Why do we make music this way? And presenting an alternative way through all of her work.

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I think that answers it, Ahmed. Bjork is a queer icon because of how she relates to the world around her, because she can’t be put in a box, and because she’s unapologetically herself. She expresses those ideas through her lyrics, her fashion, her music. And all of those factors create a haven for LGBTQ listeners.

 

And now, I turn the mic back to you listeners. Here are some of your stories about how Bjork’s music helped you feel seen, safe, and confident about who you are.

 

This is Sumner.

 

Sumner: I'm from Alabama. So it's like not the best place to be gay, obviously. It gave me a chance to think about going to Iceland, you know, traveling there mentally and giving a space safe space to where I could express myself and my sexuality, because it was just me at that point. Like that's all who I told. And it was just nice having this own little music that was like my own little place to go to. 

 

This is Frank from the Netherlands, who we heard from earlier in the episode.

 

Frank: I remember there was a boy who I went out to this party with them. When Bjork came up, I remember he was like, "Oh, that's cool. That's really cool." And there was a change in like him saying how cool she was. I noticed that he really thought she was good. He wasn't just saying it to be cool. And at the same time I felt like there was something that we both wanted to say to each other. And I didn't say it and he didn't say anything either, but later on, it was just one of those things that we kind of smiled back on at that night. 

 

And here’s Gustavo from Mexico City.

 

Gustavo: When I came out to my family, it was about 1998. Fifteen years old and my parents didn't take it very well at the beginning. And they sent me to psychological therapy. And when I started going to therapy, the doctor asked me a lot of things and.. one session asked me to bring my favorite music. And I gave him a Homogenic album, which was the latest in that time. And he was listening to it and then told me he thought it was kind of depressing or… gloomy. And from that point I felt like then that her music became part of my life identity too. I embrace that. Bjork's music helped me to overcome all that process of self acceptance. And to me it's one of the biggest infuences in my life.